How diaspora readers debate China as “engineering state,” America decline, civil society’s collapse, rule of law vs. rule by man, and what it means to leave China but never let go, with remarks by Dan
Very interesting conversation. Three points: (1) It looks like most people in the discussion group are successful, young professionals. Probably not in the top 1%, but close to or aspiring to be members of the top 10%. I wonder how the discussion would look among a group of “median” workers. I am a retired American economics professor living in a small city in Yunnan province. My view is that life quality for median workers here is much better than it would be in a similar city in the US. (Or in Beijing). (2). I agree that Wang’s distinction between an engineering state and a lawyers’ state is important. Lawyers typically impede building and engineers naturally want to build. But, I don’t think it comes down to rule of law vs rule by law. Average people in the US often correctly believe that the expense of good lawyers prevents them from accessing rule of law. Which brings me to (3): In my view, the US is more accurately a finance guys state. For example, with enough money firms that are clearly violating the intent and the letter of antitrust law can run rings around the DOJ.
I agree with your first point that this group of people is highly selected and privileged. I'm not denying that. I also think your third point is great—you should expand on it!
I did not mean to imply that there is anything wrong with being successful (of course with limits about how that success is acquired). I’m actually in the painful final stages of completing a book that deals substantially with the effects of financial systems on the Chinese and American middle classes over the past 45 years. It is titled “How Nations Succeed: The China Case Study” and will be published by Springer in English in the Spring and by Citic Books in Chinese later next year.
Yes. The Financialization of everything destroyed everything it monetized.
That includes money and finance itself by the way, the Derivatives- of Finance overwhelmingly- the BIS tracks the derivatives at $618T notionally (as in not true) and $17T market value…that’s their actual worth.
Really enjoyed this piece. The opening and Dan's third point at the end resonated deeply: they capture the central dilemma for many of us in the diaspora, elevating the conversation from a U.S.–China binary toward the harder questions of who we are and where we stand.
Your piece is both validating and inspiring: while you're both fully aware of the peril of holding a thoughtful, firm middle, you still refuse flattened narratives, insist on nuance, and keep working to build understanding anyway. 🙏🏻
It's interesting how this linguistic and cultural deep-dive into Breakneck's reception could almost serve as a blueprint for understanding the nuanced layers of diasporic identiy globally, making me wonder what new AI tools might reveal in future discussions.
Thank you, Andreea, for such a thoughtful comment. this means a lot - comments like this would motivating us keep doing such bookclub! Yes, an AI tool helped with translation, and it's also an edit-heavy piece—I probably spent 10 hours on it. So I tried to bring out the true intention and context. Take it as a Straussian translation, lol.
Fantastic discussion, would love this to become an ongoing series.
Regarding the feeling of "your brain turning off" in China, I did want to share my personal experience - as someone that 'voted with my feet' in the other direction, I suppose.
When I go back to the United States, I often feel absolutely bombarded with news and politics. Loud and colorful cable news is blaring at almost every eatery, mostly-shallow political discussions (often people regurgitating points made by this talking head or that) dominate the public space, from bars to gyms. Maybe it's the circles I find myself, I don't know.
When I come back to China, it's like a ringing in my head stops. I can engage with intellectual life on my own terms. I have a VPN on my home router - it's never really an issue. I've read books on Kindle for my entire adult life. True, sometimes I miss the feeling of going into a really good library, but frankly a good part of that is a limited ability to read widely in the Chinese language. And I certainly wouldn't trade that for the noise.
Sometimes a cab driver might begin talking your ear off about X or Y thing the American government did, but it'd an incredibly easy conversation to shut down in its tracks: "Oh, these are government things. Doesn't have anything to do with us laobaixing, I can't control anything the government does." And then the conversation moves on to food, family, and life. There's a cultural freedom to apolitical in China, one that you definitely don't find in educated circles in America.
A fantastic discussion, Afra. The Amazon analogy ('Your margin is my opportunity') is the key to unlocking the entire book.
From my perspective, the 'Engineering State' isn't just about politicians with STEM degrees; it represents the systematic removal of friction.
The 'Lawyerly Society' prioritizes Process (which creates friction/cost), while the 'Engineering State' prioritizes Outcome (which requires unchecked power).
The dilemma for the West is structural: Can you re-industrialize (rebuild Redundancy) without dismantling the legal frameworks that make society 'civil'? As your podcast guest noted, the West is realizing that 'producer selfhood' matters, but it has yet to solve the transaction cost problem. [https://chinarbitrageur.substack.com/p/neijuan-why-your-chinese-competitor]
Enjoyed this analysis, but found it interesting that there was not much discussion of what makes each country strong but more on what the weaknesses are for each. I would be curious how to keep Chinese dynamism without the aggressive attacks and control, and how America can build more, produce more without losing all protections of the lawyerly society, which Reader A I think missed in their comments. The Lawyerly society is inefficient by design and that is how some of its protections arise but is that essential? Also would love to know what VPN Afra used for her trip as I am heading to China in two weeks and need a new one.
Author -Afra a caution on supposed time preferences and America;
The coasts aren’t representative of any America but the coasts, indeed Americans have long called Manhattan “an island off the coast of America”. So dealing with transient Professionals isn’t the same as dealing with people who are rooted.
One might as well draw conclusions from a hotel bar or restaurant, of course that’s not the country. My family has deep roots where I live now and in America, most of us do. Americans look well beyond 5 years.
“What will China be like in fifty years? A hundred years?” But in American political discourse, even “five years from now” already counts as long-term. Few people seriously consider “what will America look like in a hundred years.”
That’s not true of the country at large. Of course not. The coasts are largely transients, especially Professionals.
Another term is rootless cosmopolitans, although it’s a tad impolite.
Why the hell would this have anything to do with the opium wars or confucianism? Read Susan strange. Geopolitics, not culture. Engineering and technology is about production, which is about economy, which is about security and defense.
If we're trying to understand China's success, debating around “engineering state vs. lawyerly society”, it seems relevant.
Defence procurement and engineering industries more generally have been drained of material investment to the point that US military procurement is broken. The Trump administration found itself complaining only last week that defence workers can get better pay and conditions working at fast food chains.
This financialisation also engenders competition that hinders collaboration across companies and technologies.
And those lawyers, most will be working for listed companies defending their prerogatives and "shareholder value"...
Very interesting conversation. Three points: (1) It looks like most people in the discussion group are successful, young professionals. Probably not in the top 1%, but close to or aspiring to be members of the top 10%. I wonder how the discussion would look among a group of “median” workers. I am a retired American economics professor living in a small city in Yunnan province. My view is that life quality for median workers here is much better than it would be in a similar city in the US. (Or in Beijing). (2). I agree that Wang’s distinction between an engineering state and a lawyers’ state is important. Lawyers typically impede building and engineers naturally want to build. But, I don’t think it comes down to rule of law vs rule by law. Average people in the US often correctly believe that the expense of good lawyers prevents them from accessing rule of law. Which brings me to (3): In my view, the US is more accurately a finance guys state. For example, with enough money firms that are clearly violating the intent and the letter of antitrust law can run rings around the DOJ.
I agree with your first point that this group of people is highly selected and privileged. I'm not denying that. I also think your third point is great—you should expand on it!
I did not mean to imply that there is anything wrong with being successful (of course with limits about how that success is acquired). I’m actually in the painful final stages of completing a book that deals substantially with the effects of financial systems on the Chinese and American middle classes over the past 45 years. It is titled “How Nations Succeed: The China Case Study” and will be published by Springer in English in the Spring and by Citic Books in Chinese later next year.
Yes. The Financialization of everything destroyed everything it monetized.
That includes money and finance itself by the way, the Derivatives- of Finance overwhelmingly- the BIS tracks the derivatives at $618T notionally (as in not true) and $17T market value…that’s their actual worth.
The debt ratios point the same dismal direction.
So… they’ve ruined themselves too.
So yes Law is ruined.
Easily the most nuanced and interesting review-discussion about the book I've seen, thanks. Now I want to write my own review after reading this.
omg thank you so much PF, are you writing it? I am looking forward to reading it (please feel free to send me a draft or something)
Really enjoy the depth/diversity of various dissenting ideas here. Fun read
thank you for much for reading it🫡
Really enjoyed this piece. The opening and Dan's third point at the end resonated deeply: they capture the central dilemma for many of us in the diaspora, elevating the conversation from a U.S.–China binary toward the harder questions of who we are and where we stand.
Your piece is both validating and inspiring: while you're both fully aware of the peril of holding a thoughtful, firm middle, you still refuse flattened narratives, insist on nuance, and keep working to build understanding anyway. 🙏🏻
Thank you, Haihao, for the thoughtful comments. You are invaluable to this conversation!
wtfchina2020.com
This website looks interesting. Did you make it?
Yeah. Asked Claude to make it for me. Been noticing this trend line for a while.
It's interesting how this linguistic and cultural deep-dive into Breakneck's reception could almost serve as a blueprint for understanding the nuanced layers of diasporic identiy globally, making me wonder what new AI tools might reveal in future discussions.
Thank you, Andreea, for such a thoughtful comment. this means a lot - comments like this would motivating us keep doing such bookclub! Yes, an AI tool helped with translation, and it's also an edit-heavy piece—I probably spent 10 hours on it. So I tried to bring out the true intention and context. Take it as a Straussian translation, lol.
Fantastic discussion, would love this to become an ongoing series.
Regarding the feeling of "your brain turning off" in China, I did want to share my personal experience - as someone that 'voted with my feet' in the other direction, I suppose.
When I go back to the United States, I often feel absolutely bombarded with news and politics. Loud and colorful cable news is blaring at almost every eatery, mostly-shallow political discussions (often people regurgitating points made by this talking head or that) dominate the public space, from bars to gyms. Maybe it's the circles I find myself, I don't know.
When I come back to China, it's like a ringing in my head stops. I can engage with intellectual life on my own terms. I have a VPN on my home router - it's never really an issue. I've read books on Kindle for my entire adult life. True, sometimes I miss the feeling of going into a really good library, but frankly a good part of that is a limited ability to read widely in the Chinese language. And I certainly wouldn't trade that for the noise.
Sometimes a cab driver might begin talking your ear off about X or Y thing the American government did, but it'd an incredibly easy conversation to shut down in its tracks: "Oh, these are government things. Doesn't have anything to do with us laobaixing, I can't control anything the government does." And then the conversation moves on to food, family, and life. There's a cultural freedom to apolitical in China, one that you definitely don't find in educated circles in America.
A fantastic discussion, Afra. The Amazon analogy ('Your margin is my opportunity') is the key to unlocking the entire book.
From my perspective, the 'Engineering State' isn't just about politicians with STEM degrees; it represents the systematic removal of friction.
The 'Lawyerly Society' prioritizes Process (which creates friction/cost), while the 'Engineering State' prioritizes Outcome (which requires unchecked power).
The dilemma for the West is structural: Can you re-industrialize (rebuild Redundancy) without dismantling the legal frameworks that make society 'civil'? As your podcast guest noted, the West is realizing that 'producer selfhood' matters, but it has yet to solve the transaction cost problem. [https://chinarbitrageur.substack.com/p/neijuan-why-your-chinese-competitor]
Enjoyed this analysis, but found it interesting that there was not much discussion of what makes each country strong but more on what the weaknesses are for each. I would be curious how to keep Chinese dynamism without the aggressive attacks and control, and how America can build more, produce more without losing all protections of the lawyerly society, which Reader A I think missed in their comments. The Lawyerly society is inefficient by design and that is how some of its protections arise but is that essential? Also would love to know what VPN Afra used for her trip as I am heading to China in two weeks and need a new one.
There is no best system. Live in it and adjust yourself.
“One outcome I am looking for is that the United States will be more welcoming to Chinese”
We’re 🇺🇸 looking for a United States more welcoming to Americans.
This outcome will happen, probably with much unpleasantness.
Author -Afra a caution on supposed time preferences and America;
The coasts aren’t representative of any America but the coasts, indeed Americans have long called Manhattan “an island off the coast of America”. So dealing with transient Professionals isn’t the same as dealing with people who are rooted.
One might as well draw conclusions from a hotel bar or restaurant, of course that’s not the country. My family has deep roots where I live now and in America, most of us do. Americans look well beyond 5 years.
“What will China be like in fifty years? A hundred years?” But in American political discourse, even “five years from now” already counts as long-term. Few people seriously consider “what will America look like in a hundred years.”
That’s not true of the country at large. Of course not. The coasts are largely transients, especially Professionals.
Another term is rootless cosmopolitans, although it’s a tad impolite.
It’s always rule of men, at least in America.
As lawyer NYC obliquely touches on… it’s when to be “creative” and “let go.”.
… or when to be obstructionist, such as when it’s in the Men’s interest.
Why the hell would this have anything to do with the opium wars or confucianism? Read Susan strange. Geopolitics, not culture. Engineering and technology is about production, which is about economy, which is about security and defense.
In this context, she's referring to historical trauma, which directly motivates China's industrialization and tech sector.
As an American the moats held by lawyers have intruded too far …
And grossly overextended.
(Into the very family and home, hence the angry young men).
Moreover the lawyers behaved as conquerors and indeed arrogant nobles, that is ending.
“It’s frightened”
It should be, The Law.
That’s our problem, you may only see it in tech.
This isn’t a problem anyone else wants to have any part of…
No mention of US financialised capitalism seems notable...
can you be more specific? why is this topic relevant?
If we're trying to understand China's success, debating around “engineering state vs. lawyerly society”, it seems relevant.
Defence procurement and engineering industries more generally have been drained of material investment to the point that US military procurement is broken. The Trump administration found itself complaining only last week that defence workers can get better pay and conditions working at fast food chains.
This financialisation also engenders competition that hinders collaboration across companies and technologies.
And those lawyers, most will be working for listed companies defending their prerogatives and "shareholder value"...
etc etc